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Post by debater on May 12, 2013 20:15:52 GMT -4
Hello everybody!
I've not been effected directly by wind farms as I'm from the UK and live in a city but I have seen media coverage and have a keen interest in both sides of the argument for and against.
In the interest of stimulating discussion and making the forum more active I would like to have a debate on wind farms and energy policy as a whole.
Because as far as I know everyone here is anti wind energy I would like to put myself forward in support. If this is a bad idea let me know.
To start with, what is so bad about reasonably placed wind farms and what power source is preferable to wind energy?
Let me know your thoughts,
Debater
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Post by Donna Quixote on May 15, 2013 8:31:08 GMT -4
Hi debater! Thanks for getting a conversation going on our forum. The problem with wind is that it is erroneously labelled 'green', when in fact, there's very little about it that is environmentally friendly.
I'll start with the production of these giants.
1) The mining for the neodymium required for the magnets of these machines is turning once valuable farmland in China into toxic wastelands. It's a dirty secret that is kept hidden from the rest of the world so that greenies can feel smug about 'helping' the planet. Out of sight, out of mind.
2) The turbine manufacturer Vestas, in an internal report, stated that one ton of toxic and hazardous waste is created with the production of every single turbine blade. ONE TON per BLADE. That's a staggering figure. Where does all of this hazardous and toxic waste go? It doesn't just vanish into thin air.
3) The concrete bases for these turbines are massive. As much as 22,000 lbs of concrete is required for each turbine. That's one hell of a carbon footprint. And at the end of the lifespan for the turbine (only 15 to 20 years), the base is so massive, it's too expensive to remove, so they just cover it over with ground. But that area, is forever lost to any sort of farming or horticulture.
That's three big reasons why wind isn't as green as everyone is lead to believe.
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Post by wildbird on May 15, 2013 9:44:35 GMT -4
And of course there's the problem with what to do with all the spent blades. They are not recycleable or bio-degradeable.
Then there's the fact that they don't work when the wind doesn't blow. They also get paid money to be turned off when the wind is blowing but the energy is not needed. These are called constraint payments and can be higher than the amounts they would have been paid if the electricity was needed. In April 13 windfarms were paid over £1m to be turned off in Scotland.
They tend to only perform at 25% of total capacity and the turbines only have a life of approximately 15 years, not the 25 that you are led to believe.
They devalue neighbouring properties by more than 20% and the owners of those properties are not compensated at all. In fact those same occupants may be suffering from sleepless nights because of noise (low frequency and audible) generated from the windfarms. To add insult to injury, people who are suffering from ill health as a result of the wind turbines are told it is all in their minds or they are jealous because they are not receiving an income from them. And yet it is a fact that people who are receiving an income from them are also falling ill, but they tend to have been gagged by the developers when they signed their contract and therefore cannot speak out. There are now a few people who have been brave enough to speak out and break their contracts.
Communities are being torn apart. This is particularly damaging if you live in a rural area and need to rely on the help of your neighbour. For example - the landowner here who wants to erect wind turbines also chairs the parish/community council. Neighbouring councils have made objections to various proposals in the area, particularly when people's amenity and health are at risk if the turbines are sited too close to their homes, but this particular council has remained silent. There are a number of people in the village who are seriously concerned about various proposals but they have no-one they can go to who will represent them.
Many many people are devoting huge amounts of their time to fighting these proposals for no reward. The planning departments are inundated with applications that they are struggling to cope with at the cost of other services. I personally have lost count of the time I have spent on emails, pouring over hundreds of pages of planning proposals and policies and checking planning applications (just in case I've missed anything). When a planning application goes in we only have a few weeks to go through everything and write our objections. Many people have been doing this day in, day out for a number of years.
Then when you have done all this work and the council listens to you. and your community, and refuses the application, the developer lets you celebrate for a few weeks and then announces that they are to appeal to the Scottish Government, at which point you know that it is now highly likely that the windfarm will be approved. In some cases the developers can't even be bothered to wait for the council's decision and go straight to the Scottish Government.
Developers are now pushing the boundaries. For instance, the Glenchamber windfarm in Dumfries and Galloway was approved by a Government report after an appeal hearing. The windfarm is outwith the council's designated areas for windfarms in the area and also has a number of neighbouring windfarms approved or built. The council couldn't agree the noise conditions for Glenchamber so the reporter set the conditions (the reporters decision is supposed to be final). The developers RES have now applied to the council to have three of the noise conditions changed, one of them because they would not be able to meet the conditions re cumulative noise impact. They have specifically asked not to have to turn off the turbines in the event of a noise complaint. This greatly weakens any protection given to neighbouring properties and all to protect the developers profits. The council are due to decide this application in the next few days.
I could go on for hours but I think that's enough for now. If you need any links for anything I have mentioned above please ask.
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Post by Steve on May 15, 2013 9:53:09 GMT -4
Like a bad neighbor, big wind is there.
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around all this.
Let's see if I can get this straight. The federal and state governments have given wind companies the ability to destroy our natural resources by blowing off our mountain tops, have been given permits to kill while not being held responsible for any harm they are responsible for. The worst of it is they are harming children while being backed by the very people who are supposed to protect us. We feel our State and Federal governments have forsaken us to side with the large faceless corporations.
They are using the disguise of green energy to sucker in job poor areas with the promise of jobs and money for the town. For the locals the jobs are temporary as they have a fleet of workers that travel from job to job. Then the wind companies reap the benefits of tax credits that are coming out of the very pockets of the citizens they are harming, with Billions of these tax credit dollars being spent out of country.
Is it right to sacrifice even one family under the guise of something that is supposed to be for the greater good?
Study after study have shown living in close proximity to wind turbines make people ill, with all the studies being ignored.
The results of these studies are very real to us as we are now ill.
If you could see the dark circles around my children's eyes due to the lack of sleep caused by the wind turbines, maybe you'd better understand my frustration.
It is a parent's duty to protect their innocent children from harm. If we were to knowingly put our children in harm's way the State would be after us. But in this situation it is the State that has helped put my family in harm's way.
There have been many times through history that supposedly well meaning men have pushed their own agenda under the guise of doing something for the greater good. But in reality the deed is self-serving and innocent people are sacrificed along the way.
During times of war sleep deprivation was used to weaken the enemy.
We feel the longer we stay at our home they know we will become sicker, weaker and more apt to give up without a fight. But if they think for one minute we will go quietly into the night, they could not be more wrong.
Every Vermonter impacted and not impacted needs to stand up and be heard. For those not impacted by wind projects with a State that does buisness with reckless abandon, the next project supposedly for the greater good could be knocking on your door.
What is the next project that will require problems and sacrifice to be made of Vermont citizens?
This is not someting I chose to do. This is something I'm being forced to do. We need to be heard. People need to understand. We are not playing a game.
We are not only fighting for ourselves, we are fighting for every Vermonter who may be threatened with the loss of their home, land and sanity.
United we stand, divided we fall.
Steve Therrien, Green Mountain Boy. Sheffield, Vermont My letter to the editor.
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Post by Luann Therrien on May 15, 2013 10:18:11 GMT -4
Vermont Legislature Testimony, Vermont Senate Health & Welfare Committee Hearing on Health Issues Associated with Wind Turbines Posted on April 26, 2013 by vermontersforacleanenvironment Dr. Sandy Reider, Audio: www.vce.org/SandyReider_SHW_042413.mp3, Written testimony: www.vce.org/DRSANDYREIDER_042413.pdf Dr. Stanley Shapiro, Audio: www.vce.org/StanleyShapiro_SHW_042413.mp3, Written testimony: www.vce.org/ShapiroWind_042413.pdf Geoffrey Leventhall, Audio: www.vce.org/GeoffLeventhall_VT_SHW_042413. mp3, Handout www.vce.org/LeventhallHandoutSHW_042413.pdf Luann Therrien, Audio: www.vce.org/LuannTherrien_CommDisc_SHW_ 042413.mp3, Written testimony: www.vce.org/LUANNTHERRIEN_042413.pdf Youtube video of Luann Therrien's testimony: youtu.be/HyhXL9gTlo8 Vimeo video of Luann Therrien’s testimony: vimeo.com/64765558Audio of full hearing: www.vce.org/SHW_042413.mp3 Evening news coverage of the health committee hearing, which begins with coverage of a 4 turbine 2.5 MW Goldwind project that has not been operating for much of the last week: vimeo.com/64766628 |
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Post by Vermonter on May 15, 2013 10:18:15 GMT -4
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Post by pbauman on May 15, 2013 10:21:07 GMT -4
It's really a mystery why wind developers get a pass on killing endangered species, when anyone else would face hefty fines and/or jail time.
Something's really screwy with this whole thing. Not to mention it's a huge scam to take money from the middle and lower class to give to the rich.
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Post by debater on Jun 3, 2013 16:41:57 GMT -4
Hello everybody!
Thanks for the responses, I will try to reply to the points raised as best I can while trying trying not to offend anyone, I understand a lot of you are involved in long battles with wind farm companies and are extremely frustrated at existing wind turbines.
I'll use a few different arguments including economical, moral and environmental which all tie in with each other but for now because there is so many points being raised lets stick with the economics of renewables and wind turbines.
Economical
1. One of the big points that are being raised is that wind companies are being paid massive amounts of money to stop supplying energy to the national grid.
First of all I don't condone ridiculous sums of tax payers money being spent in this way and I think regulation is needed on this point, wind companies should not be allowed to decide how much compensation they receive for shutting down generation although I do believe they should be compensated (please read the section on the national grid below for the reasoning).
-The national grid
The national grid (in the UK at least) is adapting to the 21st century, it was not designed for the current requirement. Think of the grid as a 20th century plumbing system where everything flows in one direction (ie when demand for electricity goes up the solution was just to add another power station with constant supply in a static location).
However with energy policy now focusing on renewable generation where due to the environment supply constantly goes up and down from thousands of power generators like wind turbines and various other renewable sources, the national grid needs to be able to operate more like an iPhone, intelligently diverting electricity with inter connectors remotely and in real time from the push of a button to where it is needed and storing electricity where it is not needed.
Unfortunately the UK grid network does not currently have the technology installed to be able to do this, but that does not mean it shouldn't have it. Because wind turbines are the easiest source of electricity to shut down (one of the advantages in 21st century generation) they are the first to be shut down when the power is not required, making compensation payments to wind companies a necessary evil.
2. That they receive tax credits just for producing energy which increase gas and electricity bills.
This point is also true, but it does not effect energy bills as much as many people believe. The real reason for rapidly rising energy bills is the increase in UK coal and gas import prices which are passed onto the consumer. With tradition energy generation (coal and gas fired power stations) it is a certainty that the cost of importing fossil fuels will continue to rise and therefore household bills will continue to rise rapidly.
In comparison to this technological advances are being made with wind turbines and renewable energy sources, bringing the overall energy production cost down and within the control of the UK, not in the hands of foreign fuel export countries like Russia.
3. Wind turbines do not produce enough electricity to meet demand.
With renewable technologies (withholding the possibility of fusion, fingers crossed) there is no single source to meet our electricity demand, only collectively and with a baseload supply from the aid of constant renewable sources such as hydro, biomass and hydrogen fuel cells can 100% of our demand be met and self sustainability be achieved, wind turbines, particularly offshore have a big role to play if this is to become a reality.
The alternative to self sustainability is a reliance on fossil fuel based generation which without going into detail carry many disadvantages.
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Post by eskimo on Jun 11, 2013 16:43:26 GMT -4
One of the big problems with renewal energy is the lies and half truths which come from the companies promoting it. Wind for instance produces very little power, but at great expense. There are at present almost 5,000 turbines in operation, The latest ones cost around £1.5 million EACH, with a rated power of 9.5 GW. I monitor UK electric production monthly (although I've not had a chance to calculate May's figures yet, so here is April's.
Average hourly Demand for April was 37.83 GW which was filled by Coal 15.2 GW, Nuclear 7.9 GW and Gas 9.2 GW, Wind only managed 2.4 GW Not a lot from wind.
Coal production has dropped from 18.4 to 15.2 GW (mainly due to closure of coal power stations), but nuclear has increased from 7.6 to 8 GW. wind has dropped from 2.43 to 2.37 GW.
This amount of wind power was produced by 4749 wind turbines (cost probably in the region of £1-£1.5 million each) so it takes an investment of around £5 billion to produce 2.4 GW, so 1GW/hr costs over £2 billion.
These figures for wind power are fairly constant - April 2.37, March 2.43, Feb 2.13. Yet the government (especially in Scotland) want to massively increase wind turbines just throwing good money after bad.
The highest demand in April was 47 GW, so producing this by wind would take 47 *2 billion pounds = £98 billion AND there will still be days when wind produces no power at all.
So you can see wind is too expensive and too erratic to use for reliable energy production.
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